tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25646979.post1607716026823999808..comments2024-01-01T15:35:12.954-07:00Comments on Simple Utah Mormon Politics: School Vouchers: Proving the Opponent's Point without Intending ToFrank Stahelihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01822334061980912687noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25646979.post-75340750204722200212007-09-05T12:56:00.000-06:002007-09-05T12:56:00.000-06:00Raymond,Thank you! I've been wondering how I woul...Raymond,<BR/><BR/>Thank you! I've been wondering how I would find what the supreme court said about the issue. I knew they had said something like that, but hadn't found it yet. This information is of immense help and importance, and hopefully it helps Thomas see his way to support vouchers.Frank Stahelihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01822334061980912687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25646979.post-89489897648330505022007-09-05T12:43:00.000-06:002007-09-05T12:43:00.000-06:00The Utah State Constitution states at Article X, S...The Utah State Constitution states at Article X, Section 9:<BR/> "Neither the state of Utah nor its political subdivisions may make any appropriation for the direct support of any school or educational institution controlled by any religious organization."<BR/><BR/>Please note the words "direct support". In 2002 the United States Supreme Court, which has many decisions ruling that many kinds of "direct support" by state governments of parochial schools were prohibited by the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, ruled that school vouchers which are given to parents, and which parents may use at any private school, whether or not it has a religious affiliation, did not in any way implicate the Establishment Clause. The Supreme Court noted that vouchers given to parents no more constituted "direct support" of parochial schools than if the parents were state employees and used part of their salary to pay tuition at a parochial school, which only the most extreme anti-religious person would claim violates the First Amendment. <BR/><BR/>Indeed, there are many ;public school teachers in Utah whose children attend church-affiliated elementary and secondary schools. Additionally, there are vast numbers of state employees who pay tuition for their children to attend BYU! They are free to do so, and it does not harm anyone's religious freedom, because those funds belong to the parents as salary. <BR/><BR/>It cannot be argued that Utah's founders hated religious affiliated schools, or thought they were somehow evil. The main schools in Utah Territory had been affiliated with one church or another. As Utah moved to statehood, the LDS Church gave many of its primary and secondary schools to the state, including what became the University of Utah, but retained the nucleus of LDS Business College and BYU. <BR/><BR/>Vouchers are an educational benefit like veterans' education benefits, which can be used at BYU, Westminster College, or other church-affiliated schools. The choice of the student to use his benefit to get an education at a church-affiliated school enhances freedom of religion, it does not circumscribe it. The same is true of vouchers given to parents, which reflect the State's obligation to support the education of all children in Utah. <BR/><BR/>Again, this is no more "use of tax dollars to support a religion" than is paying salaries to state employees who use part of their income to pay tuition at a church-affiliated school like BYU. <BR/><BR/>Vouchers given to parents, who can choose whether or not to use them at a secular or parochial school, do not constitute "direct support" of parochial schools.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25646979.post-79730067697799234082007-09-03T16:07:00.000-06:002007-09-03T16:07:00.000-06:00Obi wan,I checked out your ideas on vouchers on yo...Obi wan,<BR/><BR/>I checked out your ideas on vouchers on your site. They are well thought out, although in my somewhat lengthly comments to your article, I disagreed with some and (hopefully) cast others in a new light.Frank Stahelihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01822334061980912687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25646979.post-49076941391482934492007-09-03T12:01:00.000-06:002007-09-03T12:01:00.000-06:00Just an FYI, I laid out my ten reasons I oppose vo...Just an FYI, I laid out my ten reasons I oppose vouchers over on one of my blogs.<BR/><BR/>http://theutahhornetsnest.blogspot.com/<BR/><BR/>Best regards.Obi wan liberalihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04425739293622553830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25646979.post-33097244136782467522007-09-02T21:57:00.000-06:002007-09-02T21:57:00.000-06:00Thomas,If I could convince you otherwise on this o...Thomas,<BR/><BR/>If I could convince you otherwise on this one issue, would you be able to support vouchers?<BR/><BR/>DD, <BR/><BR/>It would be helpful if you would explain to me where I took it out of context, because I was not aware that I was. The analysis is linked to in my article, and I reflected that analysis in that, for example, some evidence (not all) indicated that public schools and vouchered students improved together.Frank Stahelihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01822334061980912687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25646979.post-36830049742739050232007-09-01T11:27:00.000-06:002007-09-01T11:27:00.000-06:00Frank, you are taking much of Mr. Jacobson's artic...Frank, you are taking much of Mr. Jacobson's article out of context. Please be more honest in your analysis.Brett Garnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05722225634447180698noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25646979.post-61249503950986663462007-09-01T11:24:00.000-06:002007-09-01T11:24:00.000-06:00As an LDS member, it's not if students will learn ...As an LDS member, it's not if students will learn better in one enviornment or another, it's a matter of my tax dollars going to one private religious school or another. I do not believe it was in the intentions of the framers of the constitution for public tax dollars go to the support of any religious dogma. Since education wasn't a part of the federal constitution, it was left to the states and in the Utah State Constitution there are a couple of articles talking about how state tax dollars are not to go to private religious schools. So it doesn't really matter how well they learn in or out of public or private schools, it has to do with the use of tax dollars to support one religion over another and I feel that's unconstituional at both the federal and state level therefore vouchers are wrong and should be voted down.Tom Nedreberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18231326457259436696noreply@blogger.com