tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25646979.post2139049861259387832..comments2024-01-01T15:35:12.954-07:00Comments on Simple Utah Mormon Politics: Of Columbus, Pilgrims, and PatriotsFrank Stahelihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01822334061980912687noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25646979.post-40690282614209885022010-03-20T18:18:10.639-06:002010-03-20T18:18:10.639-06:00What Truths are in the book? I don't have a h...What Truths are in the book? I don't have a hard on for the Mormon. I just have a problem with religions relying on what they consider empirical truth. Faith requires a gap and not "facts" let alone the facts claimed by Mormons.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25646979.post-6890448578986157442010-03-15T13:03:19.853-06:002010-03-15T13:03:19.853-06:00I did know about Nephi's prophecies of the &qu...I did know about Nephi's prophecies of the "New World". <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/29" rel="nofollow">Isaiah 29</a> is another great prophetic proof of the Book of Mormon.Cameronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06016275707476655364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25646979.post-78707849231549768982010-03-15T07:30:40.173-06:002010-03-15T07:30:40.173-06:00Utah Teacher, I mostly agree. God can use deeply f...Utah Teacher, I mostly agree. God can use deeply flawed people to accomplish his plan. Unfortunately, I think many Mormons (and the conventional Christians who believe that Columbus was inspired) err in labeling those given individuals or groups are necessarily "great" people--if not outright canonizing them.ALiberalMormonhttp://aliberalmormon.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25646979.post-22976457026290373962010-03-14T22:27:02.707-06:002010-03-14T22:27:02.707-06:00(2 Nephi 1:5-7.)
5 But, said he, notwithstanding...(2 Nephi 1:5-7.)<br /><br /><br />5 But, said he, notwithstanding our afflictions, we have obtained a land of promise, a land which is choice above all other lands; a land which the Lord God hath covenanted with me should be a land for the inheritance of my seed. Yea, the Lord hath covenanted this land unto me, and to my children forever, and also all those who should be led out of other countries by the hand of the Lord.<br />6 Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord.<br />7 Wherefore, this land is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring. And if it so be that they shall serve him according to the commandments which he hath given, it shall be a land of liberty unto them; wherefore, they shall never be brought down into captivity; if so, it shall be because of iniquity; for if iniquity shall abound cursed shall be the land for their sakes, but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever. It took me a good number of years of questioning the book of Mormon to find it's truthfulness. I read this book continually ,completing it in about every two months,The main question I have had is ,what does Joseph Smith have to gain from making this up and why would he tamper with something so great that it could be his demise? If anybody reads this book with the intent of proving it wrong,they cannot.I believe that it is as easy for one to rely on the philosophies of man to misinterpret that which is to be another testament of Jesus Christ.Why would this to so many be a bad thing? This could be opened up for debate, but don't come into a debate armed with the philosophies of man,My Grandfather once told me you can't debate with total ignorance.Get your facts from the source and then we can debate.And If by chance you are right(which your not!) then I have been mislead into a blessed life that I wouldn't trade for any other.Kevin Lounsburyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00197667632300171479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25646979.post-16623201937924134202010-03-14T22:15:49.277-06:002010-03-14T22:15:49.277-06:00I don't see the contradiction. Someone can be...I don't see the contradiction. Someone can be inspired and not be perfect, or even good most of the time. It's plainly stated that the Spirit inspired Columbus in order to fulfill God's purposes. It doesn't say he was a completely good man or didn't view the natives as inferior beings just like most/all Europeans did at the time.<br /><br />I've heard Pres. Monson give a talk about the inspired Protestant reformers. Doesn't mean they had all true doctrine to say they were inspired. Martin Luther was in many ways a good man and definitely inspired, but also complicit or approving in slaughters of anabaptist reformers whom he viewed as heretical because they were practicing doctrines that were in many ways closer to LDS beliefs than his.<br /><br />I don't think LDS people need to be defensive about Christopher Columbus' morality. I think it's just misinterpretation of "inspired." I saw a poster on the recent Alpine District articles in the Herald saying her student heard Columbus was bad at school, and that was her proof that Alpine is part of an America-hating, socialist conspiracy. I think that is poor thinking. The Jewish and Nephite nations were "inspired" and established by God, but lived in sin and apostasy as often as righteousness. Recognizing blemishes in America's past such as racism, Indian slaughter, and governmental corruption, let alone the sins of a Spanish guy who discovered the islands below the country over a century before religious English settlers arrived, isn't anti-patriotic I think.UtahTeacherhttp://www.utahedu.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25646979.post-73063137517930441662010-03-14T20:28:34.650-06:002010-03-14T20:28:34.650-06:00When it comes to historical judgement, I prefer to...When it comes to historical judgement, I prefer to base my opinion on the historical record than on preconceived notions about scriptural prophecy. If Columbus engaged in those activities (and I think the historical record supports that contention), then either A) the BofM prophecy is inaccurate, or B) we misapply that prophecy.<br /><br />Do you think that plundering and the taking of slaves--not just buying slaves, but actively enslaving free people--are actions of a "great" or a noble man in a moral sense?<br /><br />As to the pilgrims, do you think that a people who enthusiastically pursued capital punishment for free speech fits the definition of those who seek freedom of religion?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25646979.post-32093326293620254452010-03-14T20:13:55.662-06:002010-03-14T20:13:55.662-06:00JBT: I agree with Anonymous.
aliberalmormon: So i...JBT: I agree with Anonymous.<br /><br />aliberalmormon: So is the Book of Mormon false in that regard, or did I misinterpret it?Frank Stahelihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01822334061980912687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25646979.post-5396690055623054542010-03-14T20:11:32.352-06:002010-03-14T20:11:32.352-06:00The lies about Columbus? I'm not sure what you...The lies about Columbus? I'm not sure what you mean. You don't believe Columbus plundered the native societies he found (or "convinced" them to "pay tribute") and that he took some as slaves back to Europe? The historical record seems to show pretty categorically that he did. Even if he did so "for the glory of God," that doesn't seem to justify his reputation as a great man.<br /><br />And the traditional account in US history that the Puritans came to the New World so that "they could worship God freely according to their consciences" is just flat out wrong. The Puritans came so that they could establish their own religious autocracy, perfectly willing to enforce that autocracy by force. The King of England sent word to the Puritans to stop killing his subjects, they were so eager to put "heretics" to death. I find it sad that, in their desire to set up the idea of a strictly Christian US, conservatives glorify the Puritan Pilgrims, and tend to gloss the deist tradition which became such a powerful force in the Founding Era, and other, more tolerant and respectful religious groups the the Quakers who founded Pennsylvania. They much more than the Pilgrims truly believed in freely worshiping according to one's conscience.<br /><br />It saddens me that our historical understanding is still so distorted by the propaganda of traditional "patriotic" perceptions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25646979.post-13439431768698758612010-03-14T19:44:32.378-06:002010-03-14T19:44:32.378-06:00Joseph made all those details up with only a third...Joseph made all those details up with only a third grade education, and he waited until almost 30 before translating it? I defy you to do better with your education to create a manuscript that has more pure truths in it than this book does.<br /><br />This country is blessed from before its founding and will only be blessed as long as there are people who honor God and abide by his precepts, if we fail then His blessings will leave, and we will have no one to blame but ourselves.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25646979.post-46134210145821869142010-03-14T18:29:25.415-06:002010-03-14T18:29:25.415-06:00Another plausible explanation is that Joseph Smith...Another plausible explanation is that Joseph Smith used his knowledge of American History to create those stories when he wrote the Book of Mormon.JBTnoreply@blogger.com