Just before Christmas, in an article entitled "Mormon Hero" on the blog "By Common Consent", Russell Arbon Fox wrote this about Senator Harry Reid:
Allow me to make a prediction: by 2030, if not much sooner, Senator Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada will be regularly mentioned in a highly positive way by the Public Communications department of the church when the question comes up about Mormon involvement in civic affairs.
I can't imagine that this will be the case. So I responded to Fox's article with the statement:
I suspect that the editors of the “Third Part of the Hosts Times” newspaper in the pre-mortal existence would have written similar things about Lucifer. ;-)
BCC proprietor Steve Evans immediately shot back with this:
Frank, you’re banned. Your comment is so far beyond the pale that your future participation here is not welcome.
Steve Evans of "By Comment Consent" was so apoplectic at my comment that he would not allow further comments explaining myself to be posted. Why was Evans so beside himself? I speculate that because in one fell swoop, the rightness of my comment had taken the wind completely out of his sails. And he could not let stand the agency that allowed me to make my comment. ;-)
My original funny comment is still there. But here is the comment that got censored:
Steve: I trust that you are a magnanimous person and will allow me to explain my Reid/Lucifer comparison. I don’t mean to insinuate that Reid is a bad person, because at the time that I refer to (our pre-mortal existence) Lucifer was not a bad person either. He did, however, buck completely against our Heavenly Father’s plan that all of his children be allowed to act “according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.” (Doctrine and Covenants 101:78) This is my perspective on exactly what Senator Reid is championing in the Congress. It is from that perspective that I think it despicable.As best I understand, By Common Consent is a blog by Latter-Day Saints. I would expect, therefore, that they would have a better understanding of LDS Church doctrine. It is God's "work and glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." Eternal life is is defined as the life that God lives, or in other words, to become like God. The only way we can hope to become like God is if we are allowed to act...according to our moral agency so that we can be accountable for our own sins.
Have you not read what LDS Church leadership has said about communism, socialism, and the myriad of failed social programs that the United States has tried?
Whenever the United States government steps outside its clearly defined limits and takes away the rights of its citizens to act according to their moral agency, it is acting in exactly the same manner that was the cause for Satan and his minions to have been cast out of heaven during our pre-mortality.
Senator Harry Reid is in the vanguard of the destruction of our agency. This is why I think Harry Reid is like Lucifer. That he is acting in direct contradiction to LDS Church doctrine is why I am reasonably comfortable that Senator Reid "will NOT be regularly mentioned in a highly positive way by the Public Communications department of the [LDS]Church" in the future.
Disagree with me if you must. But don't ban me from saying it.
"Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."
ReplyDeleteAbraham Lincoln
"Tis more difficult to determine who the fool is when he signs his comments with "'Anonymous'".
ReplyDeleteFrank Staheli
;-)
Another intelligent quote from a "simple Utah Mormon".
ReplyDeleteLaw does not inhibit agency. Obviously.
ReplyDeleteJoseph: Sure it does.
ReplyDeleteAnon: Your witty sarcasm would have had much more of a bite if you had used the word "simplistic". Try again! ;-) Or better yet, how about actually debating the topic at hand...
Debating someone who believes in the "mortal pre-existence and Lucifer" would be the equivalent of debating someone who believes in the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy. I have better things to do than argue with a simple minded Mormon (the second "m" is optional).
ReplyDeleteWha....you're saying the tooth fairy and the easter bunny aren't real? Next thing, you'll be telling me that my parents are Santa Claus.
ReplyDeleteYou...are....CRUEL!!!
;-)
I don't think your comment is inappropriate. Mormonblogs delisted a blog called The Spirit of the Law for authoring a post delving into the question if one could support obama and hold a temple recommend. It was controversial, but I've seen lots more on the blogosphere that I find apalling.
ReplyDeleteI'm still trying to understand the fringe elements we find on LDS blogs that question the Prophets, the Apostles and the teachings of the Church.
PS: I added your blog to our blogroll. Anyone who gets banned by BCC on their first post can't be all bad :)
ReplyDeleteMolly: I wear the BCC ban as a badge of honor. ;-)
ReplyDeleteBut seriously, I thought my Lucifer comment would have been a great take-off point to discuss the principle of moral agency. I never make comments that are intended to stifle debate, but rather to encourage it.
Thanks for adding SUMP to your blogroll. I have likewise added KudzuMollyMormon to mine.
Molly shared with me this blog post and I am glad she did. Being the writer of the post that earned our blog "The Spirit of the Law" the coveted Black-listed Status from Mormon Blogs, I feel both the joy and pain from the experience. And for the record Frank, you should wear the ban as a badge of honor. After seeing the kind of hateful anti-christ-like behavior and the constant chastisement of the church by many who claim to be Mormon's online, I am glad to not be welcome in their world.
ReplyDeleteAfter all it was Christ who taught, "Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Not to assume that we are prophets, but it would seem that agreeing with God's anointed and chosen revelators has become quite un-cool in the Mormon blog world. Sometimes I wonder why they even call themselves Mormons when they so adamantly and publicly crap on anything the church does.
Our blog has never de-listed anyone or banned any comments, and even when we were black-listed on Mormon Blogs we still didn't blacklist them off our site. It would seem that the lefties out there are always about silencing those who disagree with them.
On one hand it bothers me that this happened to your blog Frank, on the other, please consider your ban and this comment a welcome to the club. We will post a link to your blog on our site. Best of luck in the future.
Frank: Which aggregate was your blog listed on? ldsblogs - mormon-blogs.org?
ReplyDeleteI thought that's where I found your blog.
This is M. I comment on Connor Boyek's blog from time to time. I wish to remain anonymous. Anyway, I've often thought about Harry Reid and his anti-agency stance on mandatory medical insurance and other such non-sense. Regarding James Numark's comments, remember the 10 virgin's parable and how they represent the members of Christ church. Half didn't make it to the wedding. I hope I am in the half that makes it.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't have banned your comment, but I would have ignored it because it doesn't say WHY Harry Reid is like Lucifer. It just assumes that because he's championing universal health care, he wants socialism, and because he wants socialism, he wants communism, and because he wants communism he wants to strip all mankind of free-agency. This is such a ferocious stretch of extrapolation that we might as well say that Santa Claus wants to enslave our children.
ReplyDeleteIf you're going to make such a broad comment as that, at least explain where it's coming from otherwise you could just accuse everybody who disagrees with you as being Lucifer. This is no different than the politicians throwing around the Hitler comparison to anyone they don't know how to argue against. It's so simplistic and inflammatory it does nothing but obfuscate the issue and rile up the bases.
James: Thank you. I have added "The Spirit of the Law" to my blogroll as well. It is bizarre, that, dare I say it...;-)...some Mormons act rather Luciferian in their banning of other Mormons who disagree with their obviously false doctrine.
ReplyDeleteMolly: My other blog My Two Mormon Cents is linked in the Mormon Blogosphere. Maybe this one is too...???
Anon 1: Thank you for your comments. You seem to understand my point. I enjoy reading Connor Boyack's blog as well.
Anon 2: For members of the Church who understand the doctrine of agency, it seems relatively straighforward what I meant by the comparison. It seems obvious that Steve Evans (Steve is that you? ;-) ) understood exactly what I meant, which is the only way that I can imagine someone being mortally offended by it. At any rate, you notice in my article above that I explain in fair detail what I meant by the comment. That explanation was never allowed to show up on Steve's blog. I think it would have clarified it quite well. Does it clarify it for you? Do you still disagree with my point of view?
I simply think you're giving Harry Reid too much credit. He's not effective enough at his job to accomplish anything, positive or negative. So far, he hasn't lead the Democrats very well - they sure haven't accomplished much of their alleged agenda. I have no knowledge or interest in the LDS mythology so I can't comment on whether your particular characterization was appropriate, but if Lucifer was important enough to lead a revolt he was a heck of a lot more effective that Senator Reid.
ReplyDeleteI don't think you understand agency at all. Your logic is way off here. Do you not realize that Lucifer had agency himself? But that didn't stop God from "banning" him permanently from heaven.
ReplyDeleteDoes that mean that God took away Lucifer's agency? Of course not! Lucifer, while maintaining his agency, merely suffered the consequences of his choices. And so it is with you: because you chose to write the offensive comment, you now must deal with the consequence of that choice. You still have your agency just like Satan still has his.
Your claim that Harry Reid is similar to Lucifer is not only childish, overly dramatic and judgmental, but it's based on nothing but loose assumptions. But what I find both amusing and aggravating, is that, while trying to compare Reid to Lucifer, you ironically told a story about yourself that is more similar to Lucifer than Reid's will ever be. And the saddest thing about it is that you didn't even realize it. Yet, in the same fashion as Satan himself, you cunningly make yourself out to be the good guy.
So I think what you're trying to say is that Steve Evans is like God and I'm like Lucifer. I used my agency to do something utterly diabolical and Steve "God" Evans banned me from the heaven of "By Common Consent". I still have my agency, but my punishment is that I can't comment in heaven any more...
ReplyDeleteHow did I do in my interpretation? ;-)
...so I can try to infiltrate the minds of others only through the devilish medium of Simple Utah Mormon Politics--in order to make it so that all men (except those who frequent BCC) might be miserable like myself.
ReplyDeleteGot it!
Frank, the main point is you are correct in that Big Government, State Government, Local Government ----- REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRAT sponsored laws can and do limit our agency, and as such those making such laws are doing Lucifer's work.
ReplyDeleteI haven't been banned from BCC yet, but I'm just waiting for the right time to drop the bomb and ask the question, "How can you call yourself worthy to enter the temple after supporting George W. Bush and supporting the same course of action that ultimately led to the destruction of the Nephites?"
ReplyDeleteThe whole "infringing on agency" excuse is often used by conservatives to discredit more liberal ideas, but completely ignored when it goes against conservative political agenda. Conservatives are all about forcing people to do what they think is right (paying taxes on a large national defense, making abortion illegal, taxing for road infrastructure, keeping marijuana illegal, gay marriage) but when it comes to taxing people for a more liberal cause, then it is against the plan of salvation.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous: Excellent point. I agree with you. I am not that kind of conservative. With the exception of gay marriage (for other reasons I have wrote about on this blog), I agree with you on the issues you have listed above.
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